tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post110364703843501874..comments2023-10-06T06:38:16.077-05:00Comments on the little fights: The Fear of CertaintyNathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09476174265551740950noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1105459986735002402005-01-11T10:13:00.000-06:002005-01-11T10:13:00.000-06:00Steve
"...although I don't know what the clause "...Steve<br /><br />"...although I don't know what the clause "correspond to the reality of God" means..."<br /><br />It means that our language can, in fact, point to an objective, external reality. That language may not, and in the instance of God certainly <I>cannot</I>, exhaustively describe the external world, but it does successfuly refer to it. <br /><br />"My issue is whether we view ourselves as having obtained certainty with those beliefs. Since you admit you can't 'prove' them, it sounds to me like you don't think we can. So I think we're in agreement on this."<br /><br />Perhaps we agree to an extent, but I am still willing to say that I am certain, through faith, that God is triune, Jesus died and was resurrected, etc and am unwilling to consider abandoning those propositions. I can question them, explore them and come to a deeper understanding, but I can never renounce them. From our discussion on your blog, you made a statement that seemed to indicate that you are willing to abandon, or at least alter them if a "better alternative" (I think that was your phrase) presented itself. If that is not the case, then please correct me, but from our discussions so far, I'm fairly certain we aren't on the same page on this.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09476174265551740950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1105199537166841332005-01-08T09:52:00.000-06:002005-01-08T09:52:00.000-06:00Nathan, you write, "I know full well that I cannot...Nathan, you write, "I know full well that I cannot *prove* that my beliefs are correct - I cannot prove the Incarnation or the Resurrection, I cannot prove the Trinity or the inspiration of the Bible - but I can say that I *believe* they are true, that they correspond to the reality of God. From there, I have a basis for living out my faith and participating in the communal life of the church."<br /><br />I agree with this (although I don't know what the clause "correspond to the reality of God" means.) I'm more than willing to say I believe that god is triune and I believe that Jesus is resurrected from the dead. And I agree with you that any Christian who wouldn't be willing to make belief-claims would be quite silly. My issue is whether we view ourselves as having obtained certainty with those beliefs. Since you admit you can't "prove" them, it sounds to me like you don't think we can. So I think we're in agreement on this.<br /><br />Steve<br />http://harbinger.blogs.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1104813655502436112005-01-03T22:40:00.000-06:002005-01-03T22:40:00.000-06:00Nathan, Very good post. I have taking a gaze at ...Nathan, Very good post. I have taking a gaze at the emergent movement and I have an uneasyness about many things...a lot it just does not sit right with me...not that it is all bad, but a term I am uneasy and many of the things writter here resonate with me. I not a student of thelogy but I do read the Word and hold it in high esteem...at times I feel that some in the coversation are a little loose with the Word.<br /><br />Thanks for your very wise words.Jeremiah's Househttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14794851177961398653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1104424742706938642004-12-30T10:39:00.000-06:002004-12-30T10:39:00.000-06:00Nathan-
This string of responses is an unfortunat...Nathan-<br /><br />This string of responses is an unfortunate confirmation of my worst concerns for the Emergent Church Movement. I really do hope the best for the Emergent Church, but in my opinion they will need to separate themselves from postmodernism and reaffirm the orthodox faith.Phil Steigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14948892557259431751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1103776006649764482004-12-22T22:26:00.000-06:002004-12-22T22:26:00.000-06:00It almost sounds Nathan, that many of the Emergent...It almost sounds Nathan, that many of the Emergent folks are trying to get at the apophatic theology concept without fully understanding it. Do you notice how many things that are coming out of the emergent world are pseudo-orthodox? This is just another case of what happens when the concept is run with without being fully understood. But, maybe I am ignorant... It just sounds like some people heard the case for apophatic theology and said, "Yeah, like he said." And then when they had to describe it to someone else, they really didn't get it at all and messed it all up...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299484491033612762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1103736264735774872004-12-22T11:24:00.000-06:002004-12-22T11:24:00.000-06:00Karl -
I found that post, and other posts on that...Karl -<br /><br />I found that post, and other posts on that blog, very interesting. Thanks for the link! I think it may get on my regular reading list.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09476174265551740950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1103690164857789852004-12-21T22:36:00.000-06:002004-12-21T22:36:00.000-06:00Nathan,
You might find this post interesting:
ht...Nathan,<br /><br />You might find this post interesting:<br /><br />http://steigerblog.blogspot.com/2004/12/ultimate-irony-can-emergent-church.htmlKarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12658613231684184220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1103685814199014592004-12-21T21:23:00.000-06:002004-12-21T21:23:00.000-06:00Oh, how sad!
Such shallow puddles have they, th...Oh, how sad! <br /><br />Such shallow puddles have they, then, to drink from. <br /><br />God, have mercy!Alanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02169732072381476940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7041549.post-1103657417866052172004-12-21T13:30:00.000-06:002004-12-21T13:30:00.000-06:00Doug -
Thanks and congratulations on becoming a ...Doug - <br /><br />Thanks and congratulations on becoming a catechumen! <br /><br />I'm not sure how far they'll take it, but I think it is safe to say that for most, the Creed is viewed as optional at best. Most would probably see it as largely irrelevant - informative, but irrelevant. The "need" for the doctrine of the Trinity has been questioned by people like Doug Pagitt, who is regarded as a leader in the movement. If the Trinity goes, needless to say, the Incarnation as it has been traditionally understood cannot be far behind.<br /><br />"I may be off base here, but I wonder if this isn’t, at its root, a problem of ecclesiology rather than theology."<br /><br />I think its really a problem in both areas. They have a very informal, ill-defined ecclesiology which is informed by a similarly informal, revisable theology. In my mind, ecclesiological decisions are driven by theology and theology must be informed by our worship and praxis. I don't think the pomo/emergent crowd sees this, or if they do, they embrace it - even though the praxis is entirely open to experimentation and constant revision. How can that not cause theology to follow the same course?<br /><br />"But if the primary expression of God’s new relation to men lies in the Church, Christ’s Body, and in its sacramental life, then authoritative teaching follows."<br /><br />This, I think, is the type of thinking that is roundly perceived as anathema to the pomo/emergent crowd. No institution can claim to speak for God, nor can it claim that God is working in a special way through it. We are talking about a hyper-individualistic group and one that is highly suspicious of any sources of traditional authority.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09476174265551740950noreply@blogger.com